Am I Barkmann Up The Wrong Tree?

[Derek Baker]

I am just getting back into modelling after a looooooong hiatus, and recently purchased the Dragon Panther D with Zimmerit kit. ( I LOVE Panthers but have never done my own zimmerit. ) The kits looks like it will build into a beautiful model, but the choices of decals in the box is limited and very uninspiring. So I set about researching the Panther D to see where it was used, with the hope of finding a photo of a vehicle that I could try to mimic.

I quickly found out that, not surprisingly, a large number of Panther D's used were from the first set of unreliable ones sent in 1943 to fight in the Kursk salient & other part of Russia, however they were manufactured prior to the issuing of the order for zimmerit to be applied to all tanks. I eventually found out that only the last 37 Panther D's manufactured (plus all Ausf A's and some G's) would have had zimmerit applied in the factory. Any photos I have found seem to confirm that none of the Ausf D's at Kursk had zimmerit. I did read that some of the earlier Panther D's could have had zimmerit added in the field, but don't know which ones. On top of that, the photos I have seen of Panthers that were sent to Italy around that time were either early Ausf A's or may have been late D's with a different pattern for the Zimmerit than the pattern on my kit. (different manufacturer in Germany?) To complicate things, a few sources suggested that the last few D's may have had the newer cupola style adopted by the A's or the new turret design on the old D hull !

Eventually I discovered that during his time on the Ostfront, prior to Das Reich being shipped to southern France, the famous Panther ace Ernst Barkmann actually had two different 'number 401' Panther A's. When they left Russia for France, their equipment was left behind and Barkmann received a brand new Ausf A, which was 'number 424', the one he commanded during his great exploits against the Americans near St. Lo. The good news was that Barkmann's second Panther D in Russia was a 'late version' of the Panther D, which got me wondering if his second tank would have been a version of his '401' that had a coating of zimmerit!

So, that lead me to a lot more reading about Barkmann, and I have found a number of photos of Barkmann's first Panther D, plus one or two of his second Panther D. Unfortunately, it is very hard to tell if the 'texture' I see on his second tank is zimmerit, lines from when the photo was scanned, or wishful thinking on my part. Consequently, I am not sure if Ernst Barkmann's second Panther D would match the Dragon kit I purchased.

Are there any Panther experts or Ernst Barkmann fans on this forum who could help me out? Even if I knew where those last 37 Panther A's were sent, it would help!

Thanks!

Derek

[Jamie Tainton]

Hey Derek, sorry I can't spend as much time as I'd like looking into your query, but I wonder if it possible to share the photos you refer to here?

[Derek Baker]

No worry James.

I will see if I can dig up those photos. I was going from link to link to link during some late-night researching, and must confess that I can't remember the exact locations of all the pics! lol !

ttyl

Derek

[Derek Baker]

Hi James.

Fortunately, I made a point of saving some of the pics I found...


They should be attached to this email.

A few more comments:

I noticed that the number of headlamps changed from his 'early' Panther D to his 'late' version, which is consistent with what I read re: design changes during the manufacture of the Panther D. (FYI, the Dragon kit I purchased has just the one headlamp..).

Unfortunately, some other important details can't be seen in the photos, such as the existence of a rainguard above the holes for the binocular sighing optics,or the number of bolts in the wheels (increased after Kursk by adding extra ones between original 16 bolts I believe). All of these would help pin down more info on when his 2nd Ausf D was manufactured (and perhaps what factory?)

Finally, it appears that Barkmann didn't hesitate to use the local soil as a camouflage 'paint', as it appears that mud was purposefully smeared on the sideskirts in the 4th pic. It looks like he wanted to cover up a brighter portion of the camouflage...either the yellow or the green I suspect....probably because that colour stood out too much against the local terrain?

cheers,

Derek

[Roy Schlicht]

Some Panther Information to think about. As you have discovered, a very few D had zimmerit applied. I do not think this was done in the field (although some may have been) but rather when the tanks went in for overhaul (major repairs and servicing). Also some very early A models did not have zimmerit applied and there is photo proof of this. The difference between a D and an A is the turret. Alot of older publications used to identify the A model by the cast cupola together with a ball mount hull MG. This is not the case as the early A has the same box aperture for the hull MG as the D (not suprising since it was the same hull). So when these pictures of cast cupola, box aperture hull MG Panthers showed up they were incorrectly identified as "late" Ds instead of "early" As.

Roy

[Derek Baker]

Thanks Roy! Your points are all very much appreciated!

FYI, that info re: early or late Panther D's came from several websites dedicated to Panzer Aces or Barkmann himself, so perhaps I should have checked to see how old those sites are.

Now I wonder about the other details regarding the Panther D's and A's and the transition between them.....When did the various details change? During the manufacturing of the original order of D's? ie. the rain guard over the aiming optic holes & the number of holes for the optics? (it was changed from 2 to 1)....the number of headlamps? (reduced from 2 to 1)....the number of bolts on the wheels? (16 up to 24?) Other details?

Also, is there a way to find out where those last 37 D's were sent? One would think they were sent to the Ostfront to make up for the substantial losses, but the battles in Sicily & Italy were well underway by then, right?

BTW, just to add to the fun here....I recently read that nobody has actually be able to find any corroborating evidence for Barkmann's impressive exploits with Panther 424 in France (a.k.a. "Barkmann's Corner"). Strangely, the Americans have no record of any one-day loss of equipment and casualties in their records, and yet a large number of vehicles/tanks/tank crews were lost, according to Barkmann and his own crew....strange indeed! However, it appears that historians don't seem to be concerned about this surprising lack of data....

[Derek Baker]

An update after a bit more research...

I found some great builds for the Panther D with Zimmerit, which have proven to be helpful in terms of my questions. (I have NO idea why they didn't come up in my first set of searches!)

An incredible SBS build on PlanetArmor by Sergionx totally blew me out of the water, and also gave me an acute case of the "why bother" syndrome, which will take a while to get over.... I think it will be a while before I can do an adequate job with any of his techniques, but....wow!

Anyway....I have cut'n'pasted some of the informative comments made on several forums...so read on if you are so inclined...

The bottom line is that this kit either represents a very rare vehicle that Dragon admired, or they did a very shoddy job on the research.

Oh well, now they know there will be a ton of people purchasing their Panther A with Zimmerit when it comes out....



From the MilitaryModelling forum

"Hi Pimoz ....Looks like a great kit but I hate to say that both decal options in the box are wrong for a Late D like the one you get in the box .....232 has vertical zimmerit instead of the horizontal type you get in the box along with the turret not having the communication port on the left hand side of the turret ...The other decal option is really for a field applied very rough coat of zimmerit with even the cupola being covered in zimmerit ...Rick"

"Hi Primoz ....So far I have only found two tanks that have this type of zimmerit and the late style turret, one is a factory shot with no markings what so ever ...and the other has white numbers 155 on a dark yellow base ....Panzer tracts says it's in Italy ,while other sources say it belongs to Das Reich in France in 1944... Just a couple of problems if you do either of those tanks ..First they are both command tanks with the extra antennaes and second the road wheels and tracks are the later type (more bolts on the rims and the ice cleats on the tracks).... So if you want to see the pictures of these tanks I can help you out ...Other than that I haven't seen any other tanks with this set up ...

Hope this helps

Rick"

"Richard sorry for the long wait I had to research the Panther a bit more. The obvious problems are that I have to date the kit so that it will received the proper generic markings.

Turret: It's a late style turret with no communication port. My references say that the turret was in production from July(late) 43'.

Wheels: the wheels have 16 bolts which was a momentary solution before the 24 bolts were produced. The early Ausf A model still had 16 bolt wheels. Ausf A produced from September.

Lights: The kit has only one light which indicates that it is the late type.

Smoke launchers: They were deleted from production from June so I will not used them.

Zimmerit: The zimmerit is the standard version so it's ok but the more accurate for a Panther would be the Zimm with horizontal lines. In summer 43' all Panzers had factory applied Zimm.

Ok, small recap. The kit is obviously a late type Panther D that was produced in late summer ( late August,September). As I have no pictures of the real vehicle it will be with some generic numbers and colors. The colors are not the problem as all vehicles from that period were painted dark yellow in the factory and then camouflaged in the field. The most caotic camouflaged vehicles came from that period. The numbers will be a mix of three, starting with 4. (434,435?) I found a color chart in AJ Press of an Late style Panther D with 433 numbers applied. It belonged to 4 company,2 SS-Panzer Grenadier Division Das Reich (Autumn 43', Eastern front). I'm reading a book of that division so I hope I find some additional info.Richard if something catches your eye please speak up.I need as much info as I can get.

Primož"

From the Armorama forum

"Hi Scott ...looks like a good start on this kit ....I was just noticing the decal sellection you chose for the kit . Those decals are for an earlier D with the communication port on the side of the turret ...The kit doesn't give you that option . Also note that if you do 232 they made some kind of support for the turret hatch and it also had two boxes welded to frames on the rear hull . What you get in the box is a later model D which was produced in August or September that has eliminated the comunication port and it should have the later type tracks and wheels ... One other thing I noticed while researching this kit is most if not all the D's like this were command vehicles with the extra antenaes and the plugged coaxial MG on the mantlet ..Doesn't mean there weren't any out there but I haven't seen a picture of one . I was thinking about buying this kit but it seems a bit of a mix and match affair . The decals in the kit are wrong for this type of D as well so be careful guys .

Rick"

"Thanks for the info Rick, very helpful.

It is really difficult to pin these Panther Ausf. D variations down. So many changes were introduced throughout the Ausf. D production run. What complicates the matter further is that many of the original and early vehicles had some of the modifications done during rebuilding and retrofitting, but it wasn't done uniformly across the board, and often times only some of the modifications were done. That is what makes the research so complicated and difficult to analyze. Especially when looking at photos which clearly contradict what was ordered to be done. Make sense?

I have only come across a few photos of Panther Ausf. D with this style of zimmerit and I'm inclined to agree with your conclusion regarding the communications port and the cleated tracks. It does appear that each of the Panther Ausf. D w/zimmerit photos that I've seen were command vehicles. I just wish there were more original photos available to evaluate. I'd be curious to know how Dragon settled on this particular configuration.

So theoretically, if I modify the turret by adding back the communications port I should be good to go eh? That might be a little tricky.... Adding the communications port to the turret will also be consistent with the earlier non-cleated tracks that are provided in the kit.."

"Hi Scott ..glad I could help ..and I'm glad you realize I'm not trying to be a smart ass about the kit ..just letting you know what I've found out ...As for the boxes I have pictures of both sides of the rear end of 232 and it has boxes (the one on the right hand side is bigger that the left )on both sides ...I have the first D kit that came out and it has the communication port in it so I guess if you sand the back flat and you scrape away the zimmerit you should be good to go .

I still haven't figured out how the support works for the turret hatch..is it welded to the side of the turret???? ..

Oh well I'll be watching your build and I'll try and help out if I can ... Have fun with the kit ..That's what's important.

Rick
P.S. I think Mig does a set of boxes for the rear of these early Panthers .."[/color]

From the PlanetArmor forum

"The kit only contains decals for two "Unidentified Units" the "232" and the "425" panthers.
I have some good photos of the 232, is necessary to make some modifications on the turret and I've ruled out.
I haven't photos of the 425 but I have photos of one phanter which corresponds to the characteristics of mine, appears abandoned with only two numbers on the turret "16".
I have proof of one more, one unidentified panther of the "Pz.Rgt 24" in France 1944.
I don't know more..."